[DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

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[DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

Guillaume Nodet-2
The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does not
implement jaxp 1.4.

One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9, so
one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer to
Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much time
allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work for
no real benefit.

In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy" features
such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...

So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
  * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
  * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library> element
and wherever used
  * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
  * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure which
one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log, also
removing equinox / logback bundles...

Thoughts ?

--
------------------------
Guillaume Nodet
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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

jbonofre
Fully agree. +1 as soon as we provide roughly the same features to the end users.

Regards
JB

On Oct 11, 2017, 15:01, at 15:01, Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]> wrote:

>The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
>distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
>latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
>they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does
>not
>implement jaxp 1.4.
>
>One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9,
>so
>one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer
>to
>Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much
>time
>allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
>implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work
>for
>no real benefit.
>
>In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy"
>features
>such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
>
>So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
>  * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
> * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library> element
>and wherever used
>  * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
>* remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure
>which
>one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
>keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log,
>also
>removing equinox / logback bundles...
>
>Thoughts ?
>
>--
>------------------------
>Guillaume Nodet
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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

Andrea Cosentino
In reply to this post by Guillaume Nodet-2
+1, it makes sense.
Cheers,
--
Andrea Cosentino 
----------------------------------
Apache Camel PMC Member
Apache Karaf Committer
Apache Servicemix PMC Member
Email: [hidden email]
Twitter: @oscerd2
Github: oscerd




 
 
 On Wednesday, October 11, 2017, 3:01:07 PM GMT+2, Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]> wrote:





The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does not
implement jaxp 1.4.

One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9, so
one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer to
Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much time
allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work for
no real benefit.

In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy" features
such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...

So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
  * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
  * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library> element
and wherever used
  * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
  * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure which
one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log, also
removing equinox / logback bundles...

Thoughts ?

--
------------------------
Guillaume Nodet

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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

Oliver Lietz
In reply to this post by Guillaume Nodet-2
On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:00:41 Guillaume Nodet wrote:

> The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
> distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
> latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
> they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does not
> implement jaxp 1.4.
>
> One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9, so
> one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer to
> Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much time
> allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
> implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work for
> no real benefit.
>
> In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy" features
> such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
>
> So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
>   * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
>   * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library> element
> and wherever used
>   * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
>   * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure which
> one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
> keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log, also
> removing equinox / logback bundles...
>
> Thoughts ?

+1

And again, I would like to see some milestones before going final/GA to move
Apache Sling to 4.2 ASAP.

Thanks,
O.

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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

jbonofre
Hi OLiver,

The idea is to cut a Milestone1 release as soon as we have a rough Java9 support.

Regards
JB

On 10/11/2017 03:19 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:

> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:00:41 Guillaume Nodet wrote:
>> The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
>> distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
>> latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
>> they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does not
>> implement jaxp 1.4.
>>
>> One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9, so
>> one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer to
>> Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much time
>> allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
>> implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work for
>> no real benefit.
>>
>> In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy" features
>> such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
>>
>> So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
>>    * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
>>    * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library> element
>> and wherever used
>>    * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
>>    * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure which
>> one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
>> keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log, also
>> removing equinox / logback bundles...
>>
>> Thoughts ?
>
> +1
>
> And again, I would like to see some milestones before going final/GA to move
> Apache Sling to 4.2 ASAP.
>
> Thanks,
> O.
>

--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
[hidden email]
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com
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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

Grzegorz Grzybek
In reply to this post by Andrea Cosentino
+1 (non binding)

regards
Grzegorz Grzybek

2017-10-11 15:05 GMT+02:00 Andrea Cosentino <[hidden email]>:

> +1, it makes sense.
> Cheers,
> --
> Andrea Cosentino
> ----------------------------------
> Apache Camel PMC Member
> Apache Karaf Committer
> Apache Servicemix PMC Member
> Email: [hidden email]
> Twitter: @oscerd2
> Github: oscerd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Wednesday, October 11, 2017, 3:01:07 PM GMT+2, Guillaume Nodet <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
> distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
> latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
> they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does not
> implement jaxp 1.4.
>
> One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9, so
> one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer to
> Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much time
> allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
> implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work for
> no real benefit.
>
> In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy" features
> such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
>
> So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
>   * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
>   * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library> element
> and wherever used
>   * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
>   * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure which
> one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
> keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log, also
> removing equinox / logback bundles...
>
> Thoughts ?
>
> --
> ------------------------
> Guillaume Nodet
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

Oliver Lietz
In reply to this post by jbonofre
On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:21:52 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
> Hi OLiver,

Hi JB,

> The idea is to cut a Milestone1 release as soon as we have a rough Java9
> support.

well, 4.2.0.M1 was planned for second week of August... ;)

Regards,
O.

> Regards
> JB
>
> On 10/11/2017 03:19 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
> > On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:00:41 Guillaume Nodet wrote:
> >> The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
> >> distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
> >> latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
> >> they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does
> >> not
> >> implement jaxp 1.4.
> >>
> >> One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9,
> >> so
> >> one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer
> >> to
> >> Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much time
> >> allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
> >> implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work
> >> for
> >> no real benefit.
> >>
> >> In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy"
> >> features
> >> such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
> >>
> >> So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
> >>    * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
> >>    * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library> element
> >>
> >> and wherever used
> >>
> >>    * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
> >>    * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure
> >>    which
> >>
> >> one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
> >> keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log, also
> >> removing equinox / logback bundles...
> >>
> >> Thoughts ?
> >
> > +1
> >
> > And again, I would like to see some milestones before going final/GA to
> > move Apache Sling to 4.2 ASAP.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > O.

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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

jbonofre
Yeah, but we postponed due to the Java9 issue in dependencies.

We are focused on 4.1.3 right now, but 4.2.0.M1 should happen just after.

Regards
JB

On 10/11/2017 03:41 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:

> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:21:52 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
>> Hi OLiver,
>
> Hi JB,
>
>> The idea is to cut a Milestone1 release as soon as we have a rough Java9
>> support.
>
> well, 4.2.0.M1 was planned for second week of August... ;)
>
> Regards,
> O.
>
>> Regards
>> JB
>>
>> On 10/11/2017 03:19 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
>>> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:00:41 Guillaume Nodet wrote:
>>>> The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
>>>> distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
>>>> latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
>>>> they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does
>>>> not
>>>> implement jaxp 1.4.
>>>>
>>>> One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9,
>>>> so
>>>> one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer
>>>> to
>>>> Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much time
>>>> allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
>>>> implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work
>>>> for
>>>> no real benefit.
>>>>
>>>> In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy"
>>>> features
>>>> such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
>>>>
>>>> So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
>>>>     * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
>>>>     * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library> element
>>>>
>>>> and wherever used
>>>>
>>>>     * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
>>>>     * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure
>>>>     which
>>>>
>>>> one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
>>>> keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log, also
>>>> removing equinox / logback bundles...
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts ?
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> And again, I would like to see some milestones before going final/GA to
>>> move Apache Sling to 4.2 ASAP.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> O.
>

--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
[hidden email]
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com
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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

Oliver Lietz
On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:43:34 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
> Yeah, but we postponed due to the Java9 issue in dependencies.
>
> We are focused on 4.1.3 right now, but 4.2.0.M1 should happen just after.

Having milestones regularly would help to fix issues one by one (or at least
in small units) when doing major upgrades – the upgrade from 3 to 4 was a pain
which I really would like to avoid when upgrading to 4.2. So having a current
milestone without (breaking) changes for Java 9 is much appreciated.

Thanks,
O.

> Regards
> JB
>
> On 10/11/2017 03:41 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
> > On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:21:52 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
> >> Hi OLiver,
> >
> > Hi JB,
> >
> >> The idea is to cut a Milestone1 release as soon as we have a rough Java9
> >> support.
> >
> > well, 4.2.0.M1 was planned for second week of August... ;)
> >
> > Regards,
> > O.
> >
> >> Regards
> >> JB
> >>
> >> On 10/11/2017 03:19 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:00:41 Guillaume Nodet wrote:
> >>>> The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
> >>>> distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
> >>>> latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
> >>>> they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does
> >>>> not
> >>>> implement jaxp 1.4.
> >>>>
> >>>> One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9,
> >>>> so
> >>>> one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer
> >>>> to
> >>>> Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much
> >>>> time
> >>>> allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
> >>>> implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work
> >>>> for
> >>>> no real benefit.
> >>>>
> >>>> In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy"
> >>>> features
> >>>> such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
> >>>>
> >>>> So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
> >>>>     * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
> >>>>     * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library>
> >>>>     element
> >>>>
> >>>> and wherever used
> >>>>
> >>>>     * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
> >>>>     * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure
> >>>>     which
> >>>>
> >>>> one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
> >>>> keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log,
> >>>> also
> >>>> removing equinox / logback bundles...
> >>>>
> >>>> Thoughts ?
> >>>
> >>> +1
> >>>
> >>> And again, I would like to see some milestones before going final/GA to
> >>> move Apache Sling to 4.2 ASAP.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> O.

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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

Achim Nierbeck
In reply to this post by Guillaume Nodet-2
+1 Like the idea

regards, Achim

2017-10-11 15:00 GMT+02:00 Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]>:

> The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
> distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
> latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
> they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does not
> implement jaxp 1.4.
>
> One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9, so
> one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer to
> Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much time
> allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
> implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work for
> no real benefit.
>
> In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy" features
> such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
>
> So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
>   * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
>   * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library> element
> and wherever used
>   * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
>   * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure which
> one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
> keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log, also
> removing equinox / logback bundles...
>
> Thoughts ?
>
> --
> ------------------------
> Guillaume Nodet
>



--

Apache Member
Apache Karaf <http://karaf.apache.org/> Committer & PMC
OPS4J Pax Web <http://wiki.ops4j.org/display/paxweb/Pax+Web/> Committer &
Project Lead
blog <http://notizblog.nierbeck.de/>
Co-Author of Apache Karaf Cookbook <http://bit.ly/1ps9rkS>

Software Architect / Project Manager / Scrum Master
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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

jbonofre
In reply to this post by Oliver Lietz
Fair enough. I understand your point. Let us first cut 4.1.3 and I will deal
with 4.2.0.M1 just after.

Regards
JB

On 10/11/2017 03:58 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:

> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:43:34 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
>> Yeah, but we postponed due to the Java9 issue in dependencies.
>>
>> We are focused on 4.1.3 right now, but 4.2.0.M1 should happen just after.
>
> Having milestones regularly would help to fix issues one by one (or at least
> in small units) when doing major upgrades – the upgrade from 3 to 4 was a pain
> which I really would like to avoid when upgrading to 4.2. So having a current
> milestone without (breaking) changes for Java 9 is much appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> O.
>
>> Regards
>> JB
>>
>> On 10/11/2017 03:41 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
>>> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:21:52 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
>>>> Hi OLiver,
>>>
>>> Hi JB,
>>>
>>>> The idea is to cut a Milestone1 release as soon as we have a rough Java9
>>>> support.
>>>
>>> well, 4.2.0.M1 was planned for second week of August... ;)
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> O.
>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> JB
>>>>
>>>> On 10/11/2017 03:19 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:00:41 Guillaume Nodet wrote:
>>>>>> The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
>>>>>> distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
>>>>>> latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
>>>>>> they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> implement jaxp 1.4.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9,
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much
>>>>>> time
>>>>>> allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
>>>>>> implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> no real benefit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy"
>>>>>> features
>>>>>> such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
>>>>>>      * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
>>>>>>      * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library>
>>>>>>      element
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and wherever used
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
>>>>>>      * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure
>>>>>>      which
>>>>>>
>>>>>> one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
>>>>>> keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log,
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> removing equinox / logback bundles...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts ?
>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> And again, I would like to see some milestones before going final/GA to
>>>>> move Apache Sling to 4.2 ASAP.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> O.
>

--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
[hidden email]
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com
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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

jbonofre
In reply to this post by Oliver Lietz
By the way, we provide nightly build of 4.2.0-SNAPSHOT if you want already try.

Regards
JB

On 10/11/2017 03:58 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:

> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:43:34 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
>> Yeah, but we postponed due to the Java9 issue in dependencies.
>>
>> We are focused on 4.1.3 right now, but 4.2.0.M1 should happen just after.
>
> Having milestones regularly would help to fix issues one by one (or at least
> in small units) when doing major upgrades – the upgrade from 3 to 4 was a pain
> which I really would like to avoid when upgrading to 4.2. So having a current
> milestone without (breaking) changes for Java 9 is much appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> O.
>
>> Regards
>> JB
>>
>> On 10/11/2017 03:41 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
>>> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:21:52 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
>>>> Hi OLiver,
>>>
>>> Hi JB,
>>>
>>>> The idea is to cut a Milestone1 release as soon as we have a rough Java9
>>>> support.
>>>
>>> well, 4.2.0.M1 was planned for second week of August... ;)
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> O.
>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> JB
>>>>
>>>> On 10/11/2017 03:19 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:00:41 Guillaume Nodet wrote:
>>>>>> The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
>>>>>> distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
>>>>>> latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
>>>>>> they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> implement jaxp 1.4.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9,
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much
>>>>>> time
>>>>>> allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
>>>>>> implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> no real benefit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy"
>>>>>> features
>>>>>> such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
>>>>>>      * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
>>>>>>      * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library>
>>>>>>      element
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and wherever used
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
>>>>>>      * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure
>>>>>>      which
>>>>>>
>>>>>> one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
>>>>>> keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log,
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> removing equinox / logback bundles...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts ?
>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> And again, I would like to see some milestones before going final/GA to
>>>>> move Apache Sling to 4.2 ASAP.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> O.
>

--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
[hidden email]
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com
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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

Daniel Kulp
In reply to this post by Guillaume Nodet-2

The PROBLEM with the in-JDK version of the DOM is that just creating a new empty document involved a call to System.getProperty(…) which is a synchronized call.   The Apache xerces version does not have that problem.   Thus, by removing the xerces jar, performance of certain uses cases will drop with high concurrency.  Unfortunately, CXF is one of those use cases.


Dan


> On Oct 11, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
> distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
> latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
> they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does not
> implement jaxp 1.4.
>
> One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9, so
> one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer to
> Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much time
> allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
> implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work for
> no real benefit.
>
> In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy" features
> such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
>
> So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
>  * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
>  * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library> element
> and wherever used
>  * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
>  * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure which
> one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
> keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log, also
> removing equinox / logback bundles...
>
> Thoughts ?
>
> --
> ------------------------
> Guillaume Nodet

--
Daniel Kulp
[hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com

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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

Guillaume Nodet-2
In reply to this post by jbonofre
Have a M1 could help discovering issues for Java 9 too.  The basic things
work already afaik, so as soon as I've fixed the issues outlined in this
thread and  the build passes on Java 9, I could cut a M1.

2017-10-11 15:43 GMT+02:00 Jean-Baptiste Onofré <[hidden email]>:

> Yeah, but we postponed due to the Java9 issue in dependencies.
>
> We are focused on 4.1.3 right now, but 4.2.0.M1 should happen just after.
>
> Regards
> JB
>
>
> On 10/11/2017 03:41 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:21:52 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
>>
>>> Hi OLiver,
>>>
>>
>> Hi JB,
>>
>> The idea is to cut a Milestone1 release as soon as we have a rough Java9
>>> support.
>>>
>>
>> well, 4.2.0.M1 was planned for second week of August... ;)
>>
>> Regards,
>> O.
>>
>> Regards
>>> JB
>>>
>>> On 10/11/2017 03:19 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:00:41 Guillaume Nodet wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
>>>>> distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
>>>>> latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
>>>>> they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does
>>>>> not
>>>>> implement jaxp 1.4.
>>>>>
>>>>> One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9,
>>>>> so
>>>>> one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer
>>>>> to
>>>>> Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much
>>>>> time
>>>>> allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
>>>>> implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work
>>>>> for
>>>>> no real benefit.
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy"
>>>>> features
>>>>> such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
>>>>>
>>>>> So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
>>>>>     * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
>>>>>     * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library>
>>>>> element
>>>>>
>>>>> and wherever used
>>>>>
>>>>>     * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
>>>>>     * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure
>>>>>     which
>>>>>
>>>>> one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
>>>>> keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log,
>>>>> also
>>>>> removing equinox / logback bundles...
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> And again, I would like to see some milestones before going final/GA to
>>>> move Apache Sling to 4.2 ASAP.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> O.
>>>>
>>>
>>
> --
> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
> [hidden email]
> http://blog.nanthrax.net
> Talend - http://www.talend.com
>



--
------------------------
Guillaume Nodet
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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

Oliver Lietz
In reply to this post by jbonofre
On Wednesday 11 October 2017 16:04:47 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
> By the way, we provide nightly build of 4.2.0-SNAPSHOT if you want already
> try.

I'm already preparing for 4.2 with snapshots, see e.g. SLING-7010 but
snapshots are a moving target and no option for early adopters (aka guinea
pigs) without access to Apache snapshots repo.

Regards,
O.

> Regards
> JB
>
> On 10/11/2017 03:58 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
> > On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:43:34 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
> >> Yeah, but we postponed due to the Java9 issue in dependencies.
> >>
> >> We are focused on 4.1.3 right now, but 4.2.0.M1 should happen just after.
> >
> > Having milestones regularly would help to fix issues one by one (or at
> > least in small units) when doing major upgrades – the upgrade from 3 to 4
> > was a pain which I really would like to avoid when upgrading to 4.2. So
> > having a current milestone without (breaking) changes for Java 9 is much
> > appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > O.
> >
> >> Regards
> >> JB
> >>
> >> On 10/11/2017 03:41 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:21:52 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
> >>>> Hi OLiver,
> >>>
> >>> Hi JB,
> >>>
> >>>> The idea is to cut a Milestone1 release as soon as we have a rough
> >>>> Java9
> >>>> support.
> >>>
> >>> well, 4.2.0.M1 was planned for second week of August... ;)
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> O.
> >>>
> >>>> Regards
> >>>> JB
> >>>>
> >>>> On 10/11/2017 03:19 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:00:41 Guillaume Nodet wrote:
> >>>>>> The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
> >>>>>> distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
> >>>>>> latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
> >>>>>> they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release
> >>>>>> does
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>> implement jaxp 1.4.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java
> >>>>>> 9,
> >>>>>> so
> >>>>>> one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much
> >>>>>> closer
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much
> >>>>>> time
> >>>>>> allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
> >>>>>> implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of
> >>>>>> work
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> no real benefit.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy"
> >>>>>> features
> >>>>>> such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
> >>>>>>      * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf
> >>>>>>      distro
> >>>>>>      * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library>
> >>>>>>      element
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> and wherever used
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>      * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
> >>>>>>      * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not
> >>>>>>      sure
> >>>>>>      which
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe
> >>>>>> only
> >>>>>> keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log,
> >>>>>> also
> >>>>>> removing equinox / logback bundles...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thoughts ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +1
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And again, I would like to see some milestones before going final/GA
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> move Apache Sling to 4.2 ASAP.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> O.


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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

jbonofre
Yeah, I got your point.

Regards
JB

On 10/11/2017 04:40 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:

> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 16:04:47 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
>> By the way, we provide nightly build of 4.2.0-SNAPSHOT if you want already
>> try.
>
> I'm already preparing for 4.2 with snapshots, see e.g. SLING-7010 but
> snapshots are a moving target and no option for early adopters (aka guinea
> pigs) without access to Apache snapshots repo.
>
> Regards,
> O.
>
>> Regards
>> JB
>>
>> On 10/11/2017 03:58 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
>>> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:43:34 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
>>>> Yeah, but we postponed due to the Java9 issue in dependencies.
>>>>
>>>> We are focused on 4.1.3 right now, but 4.2.0.M1 should happen just after.
>>>
>>> Having milestones regularly would help to fix issues one by one (or at
>>> least in small units) when doing major upgrades – the upgrade from 3 to 4
>>> was a pain which I really would like to avoid when upgrading to 4.2. So
>>> having a current milestone without (breaking) changes for Java 9 is much
>>> appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> O.
>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> JB
>>>>
>>>> On 10/11/2017 03:41 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:21:52 Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
>>>>>> Hi OLiver,
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi JB,
>>>>>
>>>>>> The idea is to cut a Milestone1 release as soon as we have a rough
>>>>>> Java9
>>>>>> support.
>>>>>
>>>>> well, 4.2.0.M1 was planned for second week of August... ;)
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> O.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> JB
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/11/2017 03:19 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday 11 October 2017 15:00:41 Guillaume Nodet wrote:
>>>>>>>> The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
>>>>>>>> distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
>>>>>>>> latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
>>>>>>>> they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release
>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> implement jaxp 1.4.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java
>>>>>>>> 9,
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>> one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much
>>>>>>>> closer
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much
>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>> allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
>>>>>>>> implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of
>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> no real benefit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy"
>>>>>>>> features
>>>>>>>> such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
>>>>>>>>       * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf
>>>>>>>>       distro
>>>>>>>>       * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library>
>>>>>>>>       element
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and wherever used
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>       * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
>>>>>>>>       * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not
>>>>>>>>       sure
>>>>>>>>       which
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe
>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>> keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log,
>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>> removing equinox / logback bundles...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thoughts ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And again, I would like to see some milestones before going final/GA
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> move Apache Sling to 4.2 ASAP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> O.
>
>

--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
[hidden email]
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com
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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

Guillaume Nodet-2
In reply to this post by Daniel Kulp
I agree, but this needs to be addressed in a Java 9 way, and that's not
through endorsed libraries which are not supported anymore.  We'll need a
jigsaw module for xerces.
Btw, is there an issue raised on OpenJDK ? They could maybe cache the value
in a static variable ?

2017-10-11 16:06 GMT+02:00 Daniel Kulp <[hidden email]>:

>
> The PROBLEM with the in-JDK version of the DOM is that just creating a new
> empty document involved a call to System.getProperty(…) which is a
> synchronized call.   The Apache xerces version does not have that problem.
>  Thus, by removing the xerces jar, performance of certain uses cases will
> drop with high concurrency.  Unfortunately, CXF is one of those use cases.
>
>
> Dan
>
>
> > On Oct 11, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
> > distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
> > latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
> > they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does
> not
> > implement jaxp 1.4.
> >
> > One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9,
> so
> > one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer
> to
> > Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much time
> > allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
> > implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work
> for
> > no real benefit.
> >
> > In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy"
> features
> > such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
> >
> > So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
> >  * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
> >  * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library> element
> > and wherever used
> >  * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
> >  * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure
> which
> > one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
> > keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log, also
> > removing equinox / logback bundles...
> >
> > Thoughts ?
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------
> > Guillaume Nodet
>
> --
> Daniel Kulp
> [hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
> Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
>
>


--
------------------------
Guillaume Nodet
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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

Daniel Kulp


> On Oct 11, 2017, at 4:19 PM, Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree, but this needs to be addressed in a Java 9 way, and that's not
> through endorsed libraries which are not supported anymore.  We'll need a
> jigsaw module for xerces.
> Btw, is there an issue raised on OpenJDK ? They could maybe cache the value
> in a static variable ?


Honestly, I don’t remember anymore.  :( It’s been several years since I looked into this.   I did just check and the System property call is still in the CoreDocumentImpl constructor  in the latest 1.8 JDK so if it has been logged, it hasn’t been addressed.    I can look more next week when I’m back from Portugal.

That said, I did a quick look through CXF and I think I can reduce the issues a bit there.    Most of the created documents fall into a  few use cases:

1) WSDL/Schema parsing - this is startup so I’m not TOOO concerned about the property call.

2) Create “unattached” elements that are traversed later.   Things like the “detail” elements of faults, various header objects (number of these greatly reduced in 3.2) that are written out, etc…

3) SAAJ - per spec, nothing we can really do here.  Luckily we don’t need to do this for default use cases, but anyone doing SAAJ things are impacted

4) SOAP headers  on incoming messages - we store various things on the DOM for handling later.  

5) JAXB “xsd:any” and text/xml attachments - both create Documents to store it.  Nothing we can do here.

I believe I can handle the #2 cases with a static “empty Document" that is just used as a factory for elements.   I’m going to experiment a bit more with this next week.   Alessio did a bit of work a while ago to reduce the impact of #4 by only doing that if really needed, but there are some popular use cases (WS-Addressing, WS-Security) that would hit this anyway.

Obviously CXF isn’t the only thing impacted…. Anything that creates DOM’s would be impacted.   Camel routes with XML, XSLT transforms, etc….


Dan
 



>
> 2017-10-11 16:06 GMT+02:00 Daniel Kulp <[hidden email]>:
>
>>
>> The PROBLEM with the in-JDK version of the DOM is that just creating a new
>> empty document involved a call to System.getProperty(…) which is a
>> synchronized call.   The Apache xerces version does not have that problem.
>> Thus, by removing the xerces jar, performance of certain uses cases will
>> drop with high concurrency.  Unfortunately, CXF is one of those use cases.
>>
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 11, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> The point that makes me raise this problem is that the karaf default
>>> distribution uses the Apache versions of xerces and xalan.  Fwiw, the
>>> latest xerces release is from 2011 and the latest xalan from 2014, so
>>> they're not the most active.  In particular, xalan latest release does
>> not
>>> implement jaxp 1.4.
>>>
>>> One additional point is that those libraries stuff is broken on Java 9,
>> so
>>> one option would be to remove it alltogether which bring us much closer
>> to
>>> Java 9 support ;-)  Seriously, I'm not sure I want to spend too much time
>>> allowing pluggability for specs/implementations while the only real
>>> implementation provider is the JDK itself.  That's really a lot of work
>> for
>>> no real benefit.
>>>
>>> In addition, the default distribution still install some "legacy"
>> features
>>> such as aries-blueprint, shell-compat, etc...
>>>
>>> So here's a list of propositions for 4.2:
>>> * remove all libraries for specs / impls from apache-karaf distro
>>> * remove support for endorsed / ext libraries in the <library> element
>>> and wherever used
>>> * remove aries-blueprint and shell-compat from default distro
>>> * remove a few features from the karaf-minimal distro. I'm not sure
>> which
>>> one exactly, but I think we should get the zip under 10 Mb.  Maybe only
>>> keeping jaas, shell, feature, ssh, bundle, config, deployer and log, also
>>> removing equinox / logback bundles...
>>>
>>> Thoughts ?
>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------
>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>
>> --
>> Daniel Kulp
>> [hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
>> Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------
> Guillaume Nodet

--
Daniel Kulp
[hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com

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Re: [DISCUSS] Trim down karaf distributions for 4.2

Steinar Bang
In reply to this post by Guillaume Nodet-2
+1 (non-binding)

Sounds like a good idea! :-)