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[Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

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[Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

Charles Moulliard
Administrator
Hi,

As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
karaf command.

When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
Transaction Manager.

The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
some arguments could be :
(1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
J2EE server could help to spread the world,
(2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
(e.g : features, ...).
(3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
(4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
project does not longer use de facto Spring !
(5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
architecture.

KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.

Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
- http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Karaf-tt4194577.html

What do you think about this proposition ?

Regards,

Charles Moulliard

Apache Committer

Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
Skype: cmoulliard
Apache Committer / Sr. Pr. Consultant at FuseSource.com
Email: [hidden email]
Twitter : @cmoulliard, @fusenews
Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

jbonofre
Hi Charles,

as discussed on Skype this morning, I like the idea.

I think that having a new KarafEE Karaf sub-project is interesting and
is different from Geronimo.

Geronimo "overrides" some Karaf functionnality (for instance features,
etc) to provide a complete standalone JEE application server.

KarafEE is like TomEE for Tomcat: a custom distribution enterprise
oriented gathering OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Karaf Aries enterprise feature, etc
in a ready to use state.

Regards
JB

On 12/14/2011 01:40 PM, Charles Moulliard wrote:

> Hi,
>
> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
> karaf command.
>
> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
> Transaction Manager.
>
> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
> some arguments could be :
> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
> (e.g : features, ...).
> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
> architecture.
>
> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>
> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
> - http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Karaf-tt4194577.html
>
> What do you think about this proposition ?
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles Moulliard
>
> Apache Committer
>
> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
> Skype: cmoulliard

--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
[hidden email]
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com
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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

jbonofre
In reply to this post by Charles Moulliard
Just FYI, it's something that Charles and I have in mind for quite a
long time now. I discussed with Guillaume about that in the past
(providing a OSGi EE Container) but I think it wasn't the right time before.

Now, regarding the maturity of projects like OpenEJB, etc, it could be
the right time to start to work on it ;)

Regards
JB

On 12/14/2011 01:40 PM, Charles Moulliard wrote:

> Hi,
>
> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
> karaf command.
>
> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
> Transaction Manager.
>
> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
> some arguments could be :
> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
> (e.g : features, ...).
> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
> architecture.
>
> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>
> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
> - http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Karaf-tt4194577.html
>
> What do you think about this proposition ?
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles Moulliard
>
> Apache Committer
>
> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
> Skype: cmoulliard

--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
[hidden email]
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com
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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

Glen Mazza
In reply to this post by Charles Moulliard
What would be the difference between KarafEE and ServiceMix?  As with
Geronimo and ServiceMix, all I can see is that you want to build on top
of Karaf, but go in a different direction from what they have done
(fine), but, at the same time, directly affiliate it with Karaf (perhaps
not-so-fine).

So far, Karaf forms a nice core that is embedded by multiple open-source
(ServiceMix, Geronimo) and commercial application containers (Talend
ESB, for example).  No problem there, and its speaks well of Karaf that
it is used so often.  Let there be 14 projects that build on top of
Karaf, each with their own ideas of which is best, and let the market
decide.  But I'm not sure this wrap you're proposing should be called
Karaf (or KarafEE) itself, or be directly associated with Karaf.  Let it
be an independent Apache project needing to compete "fair and square"
with Karaf's other wrappers, e.g., ServiceMix and Geronimo.

In the documentation business, Apache Cocoon and BIRT (and probably
other publishing tools) wrap Apache FOP (PDF generator), there is no
"Apache FOP EE" that wrapped itself in order to offer super-features
provided by the separate projects that wrap it.  FOP focuses on
remaining a solid tool that higher level documentation/publishing
applications want to incorporate, and more importantly, does not (!)
compete with those products gracious enough to wrap it.  It's a nice
division--good fences make good neighbors.

Same thing with Tomcat -- very nicely incorporated by GlassFish, JBoss,
Geronimo, SpringSource (what they call Enterprise Tomcat, but still a
separate product and team) and probably others.  The Tomcat team, like
the Karaf team, is very bright and I'm sure quite capable of making
their own wrap and competing with their wrappers--but they wisely (IMO)
resist, probably a major reason for Tomcat's heavy adoption and longevity.

Regards,
Glen

On 12/14/2011 07:40 AM, Charles Moulliard wrote:

> Hi,
>
> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
> karaf command.
>
> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
> Transaction Manager.
>
> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
> some arguments could be :
> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
> (e.g : features, ...).
> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
> architecture.
>
> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>
> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
> - http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Karaf-tt4194577.html
>
> What do you think about this proposition ?
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles Moulliard
>
> Apache Committer
>
> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
> Skype: cmoulliard


--
Glen Mazza
Talend Community Coders
http://coders.talend.com
blog: http://www.jroller.com/gmazza

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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

jbonofre
In reply to this post by Charles Moulliard
Hi Glen

SMX doesn't include OpenEJB. It's an integration oriented platform.

What we propose is an JEE application server in OSGi as TomEE for Tomcat.
The purpose is to be Karaf oriented, Geronimo uses Karaf but wraps and hide a lot of Karaf features.

Regards
JB

--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
[hidden email]
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://wwx.talend.com

----- Reply message -----
From: "Glen Mazza" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE
Date: Wed, Dec 14, 2011 3:29 pm


What would be the difference between KarafEE and ServiceMix?  As with
Geronimo and ServiceMix, all I can see is that you want to build on top
of Karaf, but go in a different direction from what they have done
(fine), but, at the same time, directly affiliate it with Karaf (perhaps
not-so-fine).

So far, Karaf forms a nice core that is embedded by multiple open-source
(ServiceMix, Geronimo) and commercial application containers (Talend
ESB, for example).  No problem there, and its speaks well of Karaf that
it is used so often.  Let there be 14 projects that build on top of
Karaf, each with their own ideas of which is best, and let the market
decide.  But I'm not sure this wrap you're proposing should be called
Karaf (or KarafEE) itself, or be directly associated with Karaf.  Let it
be an independent Apache project needing to compete "fair and square"
with Karaf's other wrappers, e.g., ServiceMix and Geronimo.

In the documentation business, Apache Cocoon and BIRT (and probably
other publishing tools) wrap Apache FOP (PDF generator), there is no
"Apache FOP EE" that wrapped itself in order to offer super-features
provided by the separate projects that wrap it.  FOP focuses on
remaining a solid tool that higher level documentation/publishing
applications want to incorporate, and more importantly, does not (!)
compete with those products gracious enough to wrap it.  It's a nice
division--good fences make good neighbors.

Same thing with Tomcat -- very nicely incorporated by GlassFish, JBoss,
Geronimo, SpringSource (what they call Enterprise Tomcat, but still a
separate product and team) and probably others.  The Tomcat team, like
the Karaf team, is very bright and I'm sure quite capable of making
their own wrap and competing with their wrappers--but they wisely (IMO)
resist, probably a major reason for Tomcat's heavy adoption and longevity.

Regards,
Glen

On 12/14/2011 07:40 AM, Charles Moulliard wrote:

> Hi,
>
> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
> karaf command.
>
> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
> Transaction Manager.
>
> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
> some arguments could be :
> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
> (e.g : features, ...).
> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
> architecture.
>
> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>
> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
> - http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Karaf-tt4194577.html
>
> What do you think about this proposition ?
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles Moulliard
>
> Apache Committer
>
> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
> Skype: cmoulliard


--
Glen Mazza
Talend Community Coders
http://coders.talend.com
blog: http://www.jroller.com/gmazza

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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

Glen Mazza
Yes, ServiceMix places different features on top of Karaf, as does
Geronimo, as does everyone else that wraps Karaf.  It's just a question
of whether the particular goodies you want to place on top of Karaf mean
it should be a *standalone* project or a *subproject* of Karaf, I was
arguing the former.

Pointedly, TomEE is a separate project not a subproject of Tomcat, it is
not hosted/endorsed by Tomcat, it has its own URL/website.  I'm just
recommending the same thing for this "KarafEE".

I may have misunderstood Charles' email, I was under the impression he
was proposing a Karaf subproject called KarafEE (quote: "KarafEE could
be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its own assembly
release process.")  Is it the case that it will be a separate project
(like TomEE) hosted elsewhere?  That's never a problem, he's most
welcome to create 100 such projects if he wishes, nor is that something
he needs to ask the Karaf team for permission on.

Anyway, just my nonbinding $0.02.

Glen

On 12/14/2011 09:35 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Hi Glen
>
> SMX doesn't include OpenEJB. It's an integration oriented platform.
>
> What we propose is an JEE application server in OSGi as TomEE for Tomcat.
> The purpose is to be Karaf oriented, Geronimo uses Karaf but wraps and hide a lot of Karaf features.
>
> Regards
> JB
>
> --
> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
> [hidden email]
> http://blog.nanthrax.net
> Talend - http://wwx.talend.com
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "Glen Mazza"<[hidden email]>
> To:<[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE
> Date: Wed, Dec 14, 2011 3:29 pm
>
>
> What would be the difference between KarafEE and ServiceMix?  As with
> Geronimo and ServiceMix, all I can see is that you want to build on top
> of Karaf, but go in a different direction from what they have done
> (fine), but, at the same time, directly affiliate it with Karaf (perhaps
> not-so-fine).
>
> So far, Karaf forms a nice core that is embedded by multiple open-source
> (ServiceMix, Geronimo) and commercial application containers (Talend
> ESB, for example).  No problem there, and its speaks well of Karaf that
> it is used so often.  Let there be 14 projects that build on top of
> Karaf, each with their own ideas of which is best, and let the market
> decide.  But I'm not sure this wrap you're proposing should be called
> Karaf (or KarafEE) itself, or be directly associated with Karaf.  Let it
> be an independent Apache project needing to compete "fair and square"
> with Karaf's other wrappers, e.g., ServiceMix and Geronimo.
>
> In the documentation business, Apache Cocoon and BIRT (and probably
> other publishing tools) wrap Apache FOP (PDF generator), there is no
> "Apache FOP EE" that wrapped itself in order to offer super-features
> provided by the separate projects that wrap it.  FOP focuses on
> remaining a solid tool that higher level documentation/publishing
> applications want to incorporate, and more importantly, does not (!)
> compete with those products gracious enough to wrap it.  It's a nice
> division--good fences make good neighbors.
>
> Same thing with Tomcat -- very nicely incorporated by GlassFish, JBoss,
> Geronimo, SpringSource (what they call Enterprise Tomcat, but still a
> separate product and team) and probably others.  The Tomcat team, like
> the Karaf team, is very bright and I'm sure quite capable of making
> their own wrap and competing with their wrappers--but they wisely (IMO)
> resist, probably a major reason for Tomcat's heavy adoption and longevity.
>
> Regards,
> Glen
>
> On 12/14/2011 07:40 AM, Charles Moulliard wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
>> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
>> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
>> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
>> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
>> karaf command.
>>
>> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
>> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
>> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
>> Transaction Manager.
>>
>> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
>> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
>> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
>> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
>> some arguments could be :
>> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
>> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
>> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
>> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
>> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
>> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
>> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
>> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
>> (e.g : features, ...).
>> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
>> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
>> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
>> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
>> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
>> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
>> architecture.
>>
>> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
>> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
>> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>>
>> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
>> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
>> - http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Karaf-tt4194577.html
>>
>> What do you think about this proposition ?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Charles Moulliard
>>
>> Apache Committer
>>
>> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
>> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
>> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
>> Skype: cmoulliard
>


--
Glen Mazza
Talend Community Coders
http://coders.talend.com
blog: http://www.jroller.com/gmazza

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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

iocanel
In reply to this post by jbonofre
Kudos to Charles for the work with the OpenEJB community.

My only slight concern is that the number of sub projects is getting big compared to the size of the community.

On 14 Δεκ 2011, at 4:35 μ.μ., [hidden email] wrote:

> Hi Glen
>
> SMX doesn't include OpenEJB. It's an integration oriented platform.
>
> What we propose is an JEE application server in OSGi as TomEE for Tomcat.
> The purpose is to be Karaf oriented, Geronimo uses Karaf but wraps and hide a lot of Karaf features.
>
> Regards
> JB
>
> --
> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
> [hidden email]
> http://blog.nanthrax.net
> Talend - http://wwx.talend.com
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "Glen Mazza" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE
> Date: Wed, Dec 14, 2011 3:29 pm
>
>
> What would be the difference between KarafEE and ServiceMix?  As with
> Geronimo and ServiceMix, all I can see is that you want to build on top
> of Karaf, but go in a different direction from what they have done
> (fine), but, at the same time, directly affiliate it with Karaf (perhaps
> not-so-fine).
>
> So far, Karaf forms a nice core that is embedded by multiple open-source
> (ServiceMix, Geronimo) and commercial application containers (Talend
> ESB, for example).  No problem there, and its speaks well of Karaf that
> it is used so often.  Let there be 14 projects that build on top of
> Karaf, each with their own ideas of which is best, and let the market
> decide.  But I'm not sure this wrap you're proposing should be called
> Karaf (or KarafEE) itself, or be directly associated with Karaf.  Let it
> be an independent Apache project needing to compete "fair and square"
> with Karaf's other wrappers, e.g., ServiceMix and Geronimo.
>
> In the documentation business, Apache Cocoon and BIRT (and probably
> other publishing tools) wrap Apache FOP (PDF generator), there is no
> "Apache FOP EE" that wrapped itself in order to offer super-features
> provided by the separate projects that wrap it.  FOP focuses on
> remaining a solid tool that higher level documentation/publishing
> applications want to incorporate, and more importantly, does not (!)
> compete with those products gracious enough to wrap it.  It's a nice
> division--good fences make good neighbors.
>
> Same thing with Tomcat -- very nicely incorporated by GlassFish, JBoss,
> Geronimo, SpringSource (what they call Enterprise Tomcat, but still a
> separate product and team) and probably others.  The Tomcat team, like
> the Karaf team, is very bright and I'm sure quite capable of making
> their own wrap and competing with their wrappers--but they wisely (IMO)
> resist, probably a major reason for Tomcat's heavy adoption and longevity.
>
> Regards,
> Glen
>
> On 12/14/2011 07:40 AM, Charles Moulliard wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
>> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
>> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
>> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
>> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
>> karaf command.
>>
>> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
>> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
>> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
>> Transaction Manager.
>>
>> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
>> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
>> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
>> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
>> some arguments could be :
>> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
>> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
>> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
>> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
>> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
>> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
>> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
>> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
>> (e.g : features, ...).
>> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
>> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
>> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
>> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
>> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
>> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
>> architecture.
>>
>> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
>> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
>> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>>
>> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
>> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
>> - http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Karaf-tt4194577.html
>>
>> What do you think about this proposition ?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Charles Moulliard
>>
>> Apache Committer
>>
>> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
>> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
>> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
>> Skype: cmoulliard
>
>
> --
> Glen Mazza
> Talend Community Coders
> http://coders.talend.com
> blog: http://www.jroller.com/gmazza
>

Ioannis Canellos
http://iocanel.blogspot.com
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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

jbonofre
In reply to this post by Glen Mazza
I got your point Glen.

But TomEE is a sub-project of OpenEJB:
http://openejb.apache.org/
http://openejb.apache.org/apache-tomee.html

So basically, KarafEE would be the same for Karaf.

Regards
JB

On 12/14/2011 04:14 PM, Glen Mazza wrote:

> Yes, ServiceMix places different features on top of Karaf, as does
> Geronimo, as does everyone else that wraps Karaf. It's just a question
> of whether the particular goodies you want to place on top of Karaf mean
> it should be a *standalone* project or a *subproject* of Karaf, I was
> arguing the former.
>
> Pointedly, TomEE is a separate project not a subproject of Tomcat, it is
> not hosted/endorsed by Tomcat, it has its own URL/website. I'm just
> recommending the same thing for this "KarafEE".
>
> I may have misunderstood Charles' email, I was under the impression he
> was proposing a Karaf subproject called KarafEE (quote: "KarafEE could
> be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its own assembly
> release process.") Is it the case that it will be a separate project
> (like TomEE) hosted elsewhere? That's never a problem, he's most welcome
> to create 100 such projects if he wishes, nor is that something he needs
> to ask the Karaf team for permission on.
>
> Anyway, just my nonbinding $0.02.
>
> Glen
>
> On 12/14/2011 09:35 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Hi Glen
>>
>> SMX doesn't include OpenEJB. It's an integration oriented platform.
>>
>> What we propose is an JEE application server in OSGi as TomEE for Tomcat.
>> The purpose is to be Karaf oriented, Geronimo uses Karaf but wraps and
>> hide a lot of Karaf features.
>>
>> Regards
>> JB
>>
>> --
>> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
>> [hidden email]
>> http://blog.nanthrax.net
>> Talend - http://wwx.talend.com
>>
>> ----- Reply message -----
>> From: "Glen Mazza"<[hidden email]>
>> To:<[hidden email]>
>> Subject: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE
>> Date: Wed, Dec 14, 2011 3:29 pm
>>
>>
>> What would be the difference between KarafEE and ServiceMix? As with
>> Geronimo and ServiceMix, all I can see is that you want to build on top
>> of Karaf, but go in a different direction from what they have done
>> (fine), but, at the same time, directly affiliate it with Karaf (perhaps
>> not-so-fine).
>>
>> So far, Karaf forms a nice core that is embedded by multiple open-source
>> (ServiceMix, Geronimo) and commercial application containers (Talend
>> ESB, for example). No problem there, and its speaks well of Karaf that
>> it is used so often. Let there be 14 projects that build on top of
>> Karaf, each with their own ideas of which is best, and let the market
>> decide. But I'm not sure this wrap you're proposing should be called
>> Karaf (or KarafEE) itself, or be directly associated with Karaf. Let it
>> be an independent Apache project needing to compete "fair and square"
>> with Karaf's other wrappers, e.g., ServiceMix and Geronimo.
>>
>> In the documentation business, Apache Cocoon and BIRT (and probably
>> other publishing tools) wrap Apache FOP (PDF generator), there is no
>> "Apache FOP EE" that wrapped itself in order to offer super-features
>> provided by the separate projects that wrap it. FOP focuses on
>> remaining a solid tool that higher level documentation/publishing
>> applications want to incorporate, and more importantly, does not (!)
>> compete with those products gracious enough to wrap it. It's a nice
>> division--good fences make good neighbors.
>>
>> Same thing with Tomcat -- very nicely incorporated by GlassFish, JBoss,
>> Geronimo, SpringSource (what they call Enterprise Tomcat, but still a
>> separate product and team) and probably others. The Tomcat team, like
>> the Karaf team, is very bright and I'm sure quite capable of making
>> their own wrap and competing with their wrappers--but they wisely (IMO)
>> resist, probably a major reason for Tomcat's heavy adoption and
>> longevity.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Glen
>>
>> On 12/14/2011 07:40 AM, Charles Moulliard wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
>>> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
>>> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
>>> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
>>> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
>>> karaf command.
>>>
>>> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
>>> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
>>> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
>>> Transaction Manager.
>>>
>>> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
>>> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
>>> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
>>> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
>>> some arguments could be :
>>> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
>>> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
>>> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
>>> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
>>> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
>>> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
>>> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
>>> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
>>> (e.g : features, ...).
>>> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
>>> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
>>> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
>>> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
>>> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
>>> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
>>> architecture.
>>>
>>> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
>>> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
>>> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>>>
>>> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
>>> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
>>> -
>>> http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Karaf-tt4194577.html
>>>
>>>
>>> What do you think about this proposition ?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Charles Moulliard
>>>
>>> Apache Committer
>>>
>>> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
>>> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
>>> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
>>> Skype: cmoulliard
>>
>
>

--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
[hidden email]
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com
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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

jbonofre
In reply to this post by iocanel
Fair enough Ioannis.

But not sure that the community will be larger with a dedicated project.

Regards
JB

On 12/14/2011 04:22 PM, Ioannis Canellos wrote:

> Kudos to Charles for the work with the OpenEJB community.
>
> My only slight concern is that the number of sub projects is getting big compared to the size of the community.
>
> On 14 Δεκ 2011, at 4:35 μ.μ., [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> Hi Glen
>>
>> SMX doesn't include OpenEJB. It's an integration oriented platform.
>>
>> What we propose is an JEE application server in OSGi as TomEE for Tomcat.
>> The purpose is to be Karaf oriented, Geronimo uses Karaf but wraps and hide a lot of Karaf features.
>>
>> Regards
>> JB
>>
>> --
>> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
>> [hidden email]
>> http://blog.nanthrax.net
>> Talend - http://wwx.talend.com
>>
>> ----- Reply message -----
>> From: "Glen Mazza"<[hidden email]>
>> To:<[hidden email]>
>> Subject: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE
>> Date: Wed, Dec 14, 2011 3:29 pm
>>
>>
>> What would be the difference between KarafEE and ServiceMix?  As with
>> Geronimo and ServiceMix, all I can see is that you want to build on top
>> of Karaf, but go in a different direction from what they have done
>> (fine), but, at the same time, directly affiliate it with Karaf (perhaps
>> not-so-fine).
>>
>> So far, Karaf forms a nice core that is embedded by multiple open-source
>> (ServiceMix, Geronimo) and commercial application containers (Talend
>> ESB, for example).  No problem there, and its speaks well of Karaf that
>> it is used so often.  Let there be 14 projects that build on top of
>> Karaf, each with their own ideas of which is best, and let the market
>> decide.  But I'm not sure this wrap you're proposing should be called
>> Karaf (or KarafEE) itself, or be directly associated with Karaf.  Let it
>> be an independent Apache project needing to compete "fair and square"
>> with Karaf's other wrappers, e.g., ServiceMix and Geronimo.
>>
>> In the documentation business, Apache Cocoon and BIRT (and probably
>> other publishing tools) wrap Apache FOP (PDF generator), there is no
>> "Apache FOP EE" that wrapped itself in order to offer super-features
>> provided by the separate projects that wrap it.  FOP focuses on
>> remaining a solid tool that higher level documentation/publishing
>> applications want to incorporate, and more importantly, does not (!)
>> compete with those products gracious enough to wrap it.  It's a nice
>> division--good fences make good neighbors.
>>
>> Same thing with Tomcat -- very nicely incorporated by GlassFish, JBoss,
>> Geronimo, SpringSource (what they call Enterprise Tomcat, but still a
>> separate product and team) and probably others.  The Tomcat team, like
>> the Karaf team, is very bright and I'm sure quite capable of making
>> their own wrap and competing with their wrappers--but they wisely (IMO)
>> resist, probably a major reason for Tomcat's heavy adoption and longevity.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Glen
>>
>> On 12/14/2011 07:40 AM, Charles Moulliard wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
>>> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
>>> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
>>> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
>>> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
>>> karaf command.
>>>
>>> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
>>> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
>>> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
>>> Transaction Manager.
>>>
>>> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
>>> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
>>> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
>>> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
>>> some arguments could be :
>>> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
>>> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
>>> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
>>> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
>>> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
>>> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
>>> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
>>> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
>>> (e.g : features, ...).
>>> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
>>> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
>>> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
>>> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
>>> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
>>> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
>>> architecture.
>>>
>>> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
>>> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
>>> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>>>
>>> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
>>> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
>>> - http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Karaf-tt4194577.html
>>>
>>> What do you think about this proposition ?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Charles Moulliard
>>>
>>> Apache Committer
>>>
>>> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
>>> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
>>> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
>>> Skype: cmoulliard
>>
>>
>> --
>> Glen Mazza
>> Talend Community Coders
>> http://coders.talend.com
>> blog: http://www.jroller.com/gmazza
>>
>

--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
[hidden email]
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com
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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

Daniel Kulp
In reply to this post by Charles Moulliard


I'm kind of +1 to the idea, but more -0.5 to the idea *here*.   I'm struggling
to really see how it fits here as compared to being done as part of OpenEJB
community.    We're getting a lot of stuff going on in Karaf right now that is
already beginning to splinter things up a bit and this just seems to me to be
further cause issues.

Also, if OpenEJB is already considering a Karaf based assembly, what would the
difference be between that and this?   Anyway, I really think Karaf should
stick with the stuff we're working on and more or less leave the EJB stuff and
the EE server thing with OpenEJB to them.   They are the experts in that.  
Basically, create an awesome Karaf assembly with all the stuff we provide,
then they can build on that to create an OpenEJB EE or something by adding in
their stuff.

Also, another thing I hate seeing is circular dependencies between projects:
Karaf -> OpenEJB -> KarafEE  
but that's more of a personal opinion.


To put it in another context, we could also create an "Karaf JBI" which is
Karaf + the JBI stuff from SMX.   But that doesn't really make a lot of sense
to me as that's really up to the SMX folks to do.


That's $0.02 worth.

Dan


On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 1:40:17 PM Charles Moulliard wrote:

> Hi,
>
> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
> karaf command.
>
> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
> Transaction Manager.
>
> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
> some arguments could be :
> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
> (e.g : features, ...).
> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
> architecture.
>
> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>
> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
> -
> http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Ka
> raf-tt4194577.html
>
> What do you think about this proposition ?
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles Moulliard
>
> Apache Committer
>
> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
> Skype: cmoulliard
--
Daniel Kulp
[hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

Guillaume Nodet
I was trying to find a way to express what i had in mind, but what you
said basically sums it up, so not much to add here.

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 16:35, Daniel Kulp <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> I'm kind of +1 to the idea, but more -0.5 to the idea *here*.   I'm struggling
> to really see how it fits here as compared to being done as part of OpenEJB
> community.    We're getting a lot of stuff going on in Karaf right now that is
> already beginning to splinter things up a bit and this just seems to me to be
> further cause issues.
>
> Also, if OpenEJB is already considering a Karaf based assembly, what would the
> difference be between that and this?   Anyway, I really think Karaf should
> stick with the stuff we're working on and more or less leave the EJB stuff and
> the EE server thing with OpenEJB to them.   They are the experts in that.
> Basically, create an awesome Karaf assembly with all the stuff we provide,
> then they can build on that to create an OpenEJB EE or something by adding in
> their stuff.
>
> Also, another thing I hate seeing is circular dependencies between projects:
> Karaf -> OpenEJB -> KarafEE
> but that's more of a personal opinion.
>
>
> To put it in another context, we could also create an "Karaf JBI" which is
> Karaf + the JBI stuff from SMX.   But that doesn't really make a lot of sense
> to me as that's really up to the SMX folks to do.
>
>
> That's $0.02 worth.
>
> Dan
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 1:40:17 PM Charles Moulliard wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
>> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
>> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
>> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
>> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
>> karaf command.
>>
>> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
>> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
>> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
>> Transaction Manager.
>>
>> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
>> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
>> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
>> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
>> some arguments could be :
>> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
>> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
>> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
>> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
>> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
>> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
>> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
>> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
>> (e.g : features, ...).
>> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
>> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
>> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
>> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
>> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
>> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
>> architecture.
>>
>> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
>> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
>> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>>
>> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
>> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
>> -
>> http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Ka
>> raf-tt4194577.html
>>
>> What do you think about this proposition ?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Charles Moulliard
>>
>> Apache Committer
>>
>> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
>> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
>> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
>> Skype: cmoulliard
> --
> Daniel Kulp
> [hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
> Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com



--
------------------------
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

jbonofre
Hi Dan,

I have no problem to do it in OpenEJB, exactly as TomEE.

We just know:
- if OpenEJB community is OK with that
- that it will require "more" time to setup it, as we need to help (or
join) the community
- that not OpenEJB is involved here, but also OpenJPA, etc. Why not
doing it in Aries ?

I have no preference, but to sum up, we have three ways:
1/ doing it as Karaf sub-project
2/ doing it as OpenEJB sub-project (like TomEE)
3/ doing it in new project (but not sure there is enough codebase to do so)

Just thinking ;)

Regards
JB

On 12/14/2011 04:41 PM, Guillaume Nodet wrote:

> I was trying to find a way to express what i had in mind, but what you
> said basically sums it up, so not much to add here.
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 16:35, Daniel Kulp<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm kind of +1 to the idea, but more -0.5 to the idea *here*.   I'm struggling
>> to really see how it fits here as compared to being done as part of OpenEJB
>> community.    We're getting a lot of stuff going on in Karaf right now that is
>> already beginning to splinter things up a bit and this just seems to me to be
>> further cause issues.
>>
>> Also, if OpenEJB is already considering a Karaf based assembly, what would the
>> difference be between that and this?   Anyway, I really think Karaf should
>> stick with the stuff we're working on and more or less leave the EJB stuff and
>> the EE server thing with OpenEJB to them.   They are the experts in that.
>> Basically, create an awesome Karaf assembly with all the stuff we provide,
>> then they can build on that to create an OpenEJB EE or something by adding in
>> their stuff.
>>
>> Also, another thing I hate seeing is circular dependencies between projects:
>> Karaf ->  OpenEJB ->  KarafEE
>> but that's more of a personal opinion.
>>
>>
>> To put it in another context, we could also create an "Karaf JBI" which is
>> Karaf + the JBI stuff from SMX.   But that doesn't really make a lot of sense
>> to me as that's really up to the SMX folks to do.
>>
>>
>> That's $0.02 worth.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 1:40:17 PM Charles Moulliard wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
>>> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
>>> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
>>> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
>>> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
>>> karaf command.
>>>
>>> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
>>> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
>>> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
>>> Transaction Manager.
>>>
>>> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
>>> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
>>> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
>>> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
>>> some arguments could be :
>>> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
>>> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
>>> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
>>> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
>>> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
>>> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
>>> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
>>> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
>>> (e.g : features, ...).
>>> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
>>> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
>>> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
>>> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
>>> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
>>> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
>>> architecture.
>>>
>>> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
>>> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
>>> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>>>
>>> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
>>> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
>>> -
>>> http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Ka
>>> raf-tt4194577.html
>>>
>>> What do you think about this proposition ?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Charles Moulliard
>>>
>>> Apache Committer
>>>
>>> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
>>> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
>>> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
>>> Skype: cmoulliard
>> --
>> Daniel Kulp
>> [hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
>> Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
>
>
>

--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
[hidden email]
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com
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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

Achim Nierbeck
In reply to this post by Guillaume Nodet
A big +1 for the Idea, since this is one of the things I can see to make
the EJB community to move to OSGi and I was already looking/longing for
such
a feature about 1,5 years ago :)

But as Dan already said I also see this more as a OpenEJB project.
Never the less, we might start this KarafEE as a sub-project for Karaf and
donate it to OpenEJB, when they are ready for it,
or start it at GitHub, as Andreas did with the pax-exam specialty for Karaf?

just some rambling of me :)

regards, Achim

2011/12/14 Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]>

> I was trying to find a way to express what i had in mind, but what you
> said basically sums it up, so not much to add here.
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 16:35, Daniel Kulp <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm kind of +1 to the idea, but more -0.5 to the idea *here*.   I'm
> struggling
> > to really see how it fits here as compared to being done as part of
> OpenEJB
> > community.    We're getting a lot of stuff going on in Karaf right now
> that is
> > already beginning to splinter things up a bit and this just seems to me
> to be
> > further cause issues.
> >
> > Also, if OpenEJB is already considering a Karaf based assembly, what
> would the
> > difference be between that and this?   Anyway, I really think Karaf
> should
> > stick with the stuff we're working on and more or less leave the EJB
> stuff and
> > the EE server thing with OpenEJB to them.   They are the experts in that.
> > Basically, create an awesome Karaf assembly with all the stuff we
> provide,
> > then they can build on that to create an OpenEJB EE or something by
> adding in
> > their stuff.
> >
> > Also, another thing I hate seeing is circular dependencies between
> projects:
> > Karaf -> OpenEJB -> KarafEE
> > but that's more of a personal opinion.
> >
> >
> > To put it in another context, we could also create an "Karaf JBI" which
> is
> > Karaf + the JBI stuff from SMX.   But that doesn't really make a lot of
> sense
> > to me as that's really up to the SMX folks to do.
> >
> >
> > That's $0.02 worth.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 1:40:17 PM Charles Moulliard wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
> >> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
> >> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
> >> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
> >> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
> >> karaf command.
> >>
> >> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
> >> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
> >> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
> >> Transaction Manager.
> >>
> >> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
> >> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
> >> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
> >> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
> >> some arguments could be :
> >> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
> >> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
> >> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
> >> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
> >> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
> >> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
> >> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
> >> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
> >> (e.g : features, ...).
> >> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
> >> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
> >> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
> >> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
> >> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
> >> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
> >> architecture.
> >>
> >> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
> >> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
> >> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
> >>
> >> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
> >> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
> >> -
> >>
> http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Ka
> >> raf-tt4194577.html
> >>
> >> What do you think about this proposition ?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Charles Moulliard
> >>
> >> Apache Committer
> >>
> >> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
> >> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
> >> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
> >> Skype: cmoulliard
> > --
> > Daniel Kulp
> > [hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
> > Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------
> Guillaume Nodet
> ------------------------
> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> ------------------------
> Open Source SOA
> http://fusesource.com
>



--

Apache Karaf <http://karaf.apache.org/> Committer & PMC
OPS4J Pax Web <http://wiki.ops4j.org/display/paxweb/Pax+Web/> Committer &
Project Lead
blog <http://notizblog.nierbeck.de/>
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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

Charles Moulliard
Administrator
Before to decide what to do we must dissociate from our discussions
the "How" from the "If".

For my point of view KarafEE will be a OSGI Java Application Server
using Karaf as central platform and OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries as the
foundation for the Enterprise features and nothing more. EE is just
added for marketing/visibility reasons (like TomEE, Cloud, ...)  If we
believe that it makes sense to promote "KarafEE" for the reasons that
we have presented before but also to convince architects, decision
makers that our technology is ready for Enterprise EJB/JPA projects
even if it is based on OSGI kernel then we should do that. Otherwise,
IT managers will continue to prefer to use JBoss, Glassfish, ...
servers as container for Java Enterprise project as nothing else exist
on the market.

Next, if we decide to go into that direction, then we can discuss
Where and How this project will be "build" under the governance of
Apache Karaf, OpenEJB or any other Apache project.

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Achim Nierbeck <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A big +1 for the Idea, since this is one of the things I can see to make
> the EJB community to move to OSGi and I was already looking/longing for
> such
> a feature about 1,5 years ago :)
>
> But as Dan already said I also see this more as a OpenEJB project.
> Never the less, we might start this KarafEE as a sub-project for Karaf and
> donate it to OpenEJB, when they are ready for it,
> or start it at GitHub, as Andreas did with the pax-exam specialty for Karaf?
>
> just some rambling of me :)
>
> regards, Achim
>
> 2011/12/14 Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]>
>
>> I was trying to find a way to express what i had in mind, but what you
>> said basically sums it up, so not much to add here.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 16:35, Daniel Kulp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm kind of +1 to the idea, but more -0.5 to the idea *here*.   I'm
>> struggling
>> > to really see how it fits here as compared to being done as part of
>> OpenEJB
>> > community.    We're getting a lot of stuff going on in Karaf right now
>> that is
>> > already beginning to splinter things up a bit and this just seems to me
>> to be
>> > further cause issues.
>> >
>> > Also, if OpenEJB is already considering a Karaf based assembly, what
>> would the
>> > difference be between that and this?   Anyway, I really think Karaf
>> should
>> > stick with the stuff we're working on and more or less leave the EJB
>> stuff and
>> > the EE server thing with OpenEJB to them.   They are the experts in that.
>> > Basically, create an awesome Karaf assembly with all the stuff we
>> provide,
>> > then they can build on that to create an OpenEJB EE or something by
>> adding in
>> > their stuff.
>> >
>> > Also, another thing I hate seeing is circular dependencies between
>> projects:
>> > Karaf -> OpenEJB -> KarafEE
>> > but that's more of a personal opinion.
>> >
>> >
>> > To put it in another context, we could also create an "Karaf JBI" which
>> is
>> > Karaf + the JBI stuff from SMX.   But that doesn't really make a lot of
>> sense
>> > to me as that's really up to the SMX folks to do.
>> >
>> >
>> > That's $0.02 worth.
>> >
>> > Dan
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 1:40:17 PM Charles Moulliard wrote:
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
>> >> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
>> >> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
>> >> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
>> >> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
>> >> karaf command.
>> >>
>> >> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
>> >> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
>> >> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
>> >> Transaction Manager.
>> >>
>> >> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
>> >> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
>> >> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
>> >> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
>> >> some arguments could be :
>> >> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
>> >> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
>> >> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
>> >> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
>> >> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
>> >> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
>> >> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
>> >> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
>> >> (e.g : features, ...).
>> >> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
>> >> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
>> >> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
>> >> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
>> >> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
>> >> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
>> >> architecture.
>> >>
>> >> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
>> >> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
>> >> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>> >>
>> >> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
>> >> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
>> >> -
>> >>
>> http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Ka
>> >> raf-tt4194577.html
>> >>
>> >> What do you think about this proposition ?
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Charles Moulliard
>> >>
>> >> Apache Committer
>> >>
>> >> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
>> >> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
>> >> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
>> >> Skype: cmoulliard
>> > --
>> > Daniel Kulp
>> > [hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
>> > Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------
>> Guillaume Nodet
>> ------------------------
>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>> ------------------------
>> Open Source SOA
>> http://fusesource.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Apache Karaf <http://karaf.apache.org/> Committer & PMC
> OPS4J Pax Web <http://wiki.ops4j.org/display/paxweb/Pax+Web/> Committer &
> Project Lead
> blog <http://notizblog.nierbeck.de/>
Apache Committer / Sr. Pr. Consultant at FuseSource.com
Email: [hidden email]
Twitter : @cmoulliard, @fusenews
Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

Guillaume Nodet
So in order to convince architects and decision maker, you want to be
certified I suppose.
How much of the JEE certification do you really want to test / pass ?
AFAIK, that's a *LOT* of work ...

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 18:18, Charles Moulliard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Before to decide what to do we must dissociate from our discussions
> the "How" from the "If".
>
> For my point of view KarafEE will be a OSGI Java Application Server
> using Karaf as central platform and OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries as the
> foundation for the Enterprise features and nothing more. EE is just
> added for marketing/visibility reasons (like TomEE, Cloud, ...)  If we
> believe that it makes sense to promote "KarafEE" for the reasons that
> we have presented before but also to convince architects, decision
> makers that our technology is ready for Enterprise EJB/JPA projects
> even if it is based on OSGI kernel then we should do that. Otherwise,
> IT managers will continue to prefer to use JBoss, Glassfish, ...
> servers as container for Java Enterprise project as nothing else exist
> on the market.
>
> Next, if we decide to go into that direction, then we can discuss
> Where and How this project will be "build" under the governance of
> Apache Karaf, OpenEJB or any other Apache project.
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Achim Nierbeck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> A big +1 for the Idea, since this is one of the things I can see to make
>> the EJB community to move to OSGi and I was already looking/longing for
>> such
>> a feature about 1,5 years ago :)
>>
>> But as Dan already said I also see this more as a OpenEJB project.
>> Never the less, we might start this KarafEE as a sub-project for Karaf and
>> donate it to OpenEJB, when they are ready for it,
>> or start it at GitHub, as Andreas did with the pax-exam specialty for Karaf?
>>
>> just some rambling of me :)
>>
>> regards, Achim
>>
>> 2011/12/14 Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]>
>>
>>> I was trying to find a way to express what i had in mind, but what you
>>> said basically sums it up, so not much to add here.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 16:35, Daniel Kulp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I'm kind of +1 to the idea, but more -0.5 to the idea *here*.   I'm
>>> struggling
>>> > to really see how it fits here as compared to being done as part of
>>> OpenEJB
>>> > community.    We're getting a lot of stuff going on in Karaf right now
>>> that is
>>> > already beginning to splinter things up a bit and this just seems to me
>>> to be
>>> > further cause issues.
>>> >
>>> > Also, if OpenEJB is already considering a Karaf based assembly, what
>>> would the
>>> > difference be between that and this?   Anyway, I really think Karaf
>>> should
>>> > stick with the stuff we're working on and more or less leave the EJB
>>> stuff and
>>> > the EE server thing with OpenEJB to them.   They are the experts in that.
>>> > Basically, create an awesome Karaf assembly with all the stuff we
>>> provide,
>>> > then they can build on that to create an OpenEJB EE or something by
>>> adding in
>>> > their stuff.
>>> >
>>> > Also, another thing I hate seeing is circular dependencies between
>>> projects:
>>> > Karaf -> OpenEJB -> KarafEE
>>> > but that's more of a personal opinion.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > To put it in another context, we could also create an "Karaf JBI" which
>>> is
>>> > Karaf + the JBI stuff from SMX.   But that doesn't really make a lot of
>>> sense
>>> > to me as that's really up to the SMX folks to do.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > That's $0.02 worth.
>>> >
>>> > Dan
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 1:40:17 PM Charles Moulliard wrote:
>>> >> Hi,
>>> >>
>>> >> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
>>> >> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
>>> >> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
>>> >> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
>>> >> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
>>> >> karaf command.
>>> >>
>>> >> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
>>> >> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
>>> >> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
>>> >> Transaction Manager.
>>> >>
>>> >> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
>>> >> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
>>> >> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
>>> >> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
>>> >> some arguments could be :
>>> >> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
>>> >> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
>>> >> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
>>> >> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
>>> >> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
>>> >> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
>>> >> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
>>> >> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
>>> >> (e.g : features, ...).
>>> >> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
>>> >> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
>>> >> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
>>> >> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
>>> >> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
>>> >> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
>>> >> architecture.
>>> >>
>>> >> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
>>> >> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
>>> >> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>>> >>
>>> >> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
>>> >> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
>>> >> -
>>> >>
>>> http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Ka
>>> >> raf-tt4194577.html
>>> >>
>>> >> What do you think about this proposition ?
>>> >>
>>> >> Regards,
>>> >>
>>> >> Charles Moulliard
>>> >>
>>> >> Apache Committer
>>> >>
>>> >> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
>>> >> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
>>> >> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
>>> >> Skype: cmoulliard
>>> > --
>>> > Daniel Kulp
>>> > [hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
>>> > Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------
>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>> ------------------------
>>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>>> ------------------------
>>> Open Source SOA
>>> http://fusesource.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Apache Karaf <http://karaf.apache.org/> Committer & PMC
>> OPS4J Pax Web <http://wiki.ops4j.org/display/paxweb/Pax+Web/> Committer &
>> Project Lead
>> blog <http://notizblog.nierbeck.de/>



--
------------------------
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com
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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

Charles Moulliard
Administrator
OpenEJB is involved into the TCK process so KarafEE will inherit it

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So in order to convince architects and decision maker, you want to be
> certified I suppose.
> How much of the JEE certification do you really want to test / pass ?
> AFAIK, that's a *LOT* of work ...
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 18:18, Charles Moulliard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Before to decide what to do we must dissociate from our discussions
>> the "How" from the "If".
>>
>> For my point of view KarafEE will be a OSGI Java Application Server
>> using Karaf as central platform and OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries as the
>> foundation for the Enterprise features and nothing more. EE is just
>> added for marketing/visibility reasons (like TomEE, Cloud, ...)  If we
>> believe that it makes sense to promote "KarafEE" for the reasons that
>> we have presented before but also to convince architects, decision
>> makers that our technology is ready for Enterprise EJB/JPA projects
>> even if it is based on OSGI kernel then we should do that. Otherwise,
>> IT managers will continue to prefer to use JBoss, Glassfish, ...
>> servers as container for Java Enterprise project as nothing else exist
>> on the market.
>>
>> Next, if we decide to go into that direction, then we can discuss
>> Where and How this project will be "build" under the governance of
>> Apache Karaf, OpenEJB or any other Apache project.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Achim Nierbeck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> A big +1 for the Idea, since this is one of the things I can see to make
>>> the EJB community to move to OSGi and I was already looking/longing for
>>> such
>>> a feature about 1,5 years ago :)
>>>
>>> But as Dan already said I also see this more as a OpenEJB project.
>>> Never the less, we might start this KarafEE as a sub-project for Karaf and
>>> donate it to OpenEJB, when they are ready for it,
>>> or start it at GitHub, as Andreas did with the pax-exam specialty for Karaf?
>>>
>>> just some rambling of me :)
>>>
>>> regards, Achim
>>>
>>> 2011/12/14 Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>> I was trying to find a way to express what i had in mind, but what you
>>>> said basically sums it up, so not much to add here.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 16:35, Daniel Kulp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I'm kind of +1 to the idea, but more -0.5 to the idea *here*.   I'm
>>>> struggling
>>>> > to really see how it fits here as compared to being done as part of
>>>> OpenEJB
>>>> > community.    We're getting a lot of stuff going on in Karaf right now
>>>> that is
>>>> > already beginning to splinter things up a bit and this just seems to me
>>>> to be
>>>> > further cause issues.
>>>> >
>>>> > Also, if OpenEJB is already considering a Karaf based assembly, what
>>>> would the
>>>> > difference be between that and this?   Anyway, I really think Karaf
>>>> should
>>>> > stick with the stuff we're working on and more or less leave the EJB
>>>> stuff and
>>>> > the EE server thing with OpenEJB to them.   They are the experts in that.
>>>> > Basically, create an awesome Karaf assembly with all the stuff we
>>>> provide,
>>>> > then they can build on that to create an OpenEJB EE or something by
>>>> adding in
>>>> > their stuff.
>>>> >
>>>> > Also, another thing I hate seeing is circular dependencies between
>>>> projects:
>>>> > Karaf -> OpenEJB -> KarafEE
>>>> > but that's more of a personal opinion.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > To put it in another context, we could also create an "Karaf JBI" which
>>>> is
>>>> > Karaf + the JBI stuff from SMX.   But that doesn't really make a lot of
>>>> sense
>>>> > to me as that's really up to the SMX folks to do.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > That's $0.02 worth.
>>>> >
>>>> > Dan
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 1:40:17 PM Charles Moulliard wrote:
>>>> >> Hi,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
>>>> >> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
>>>> >> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
>>>> >> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
>>>> >> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
>>>> >> karaf command.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
>>>> >> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
>>>> >> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
>>>> >> Transaction Manager.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
>>>> >> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
>>>> >> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
>>>> >> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
>>>> >> some arguments could be :
>>>> >> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
>>>> >> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
>>>> >> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
>>>> >> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
>>>> >> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
>>>> >> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
>>>> >> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
>>>> >> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
>>>> >> (e.g : features, ...).
>>>> >> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
>>>> >> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
>>>> >> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
>>>> >> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
>>>> >> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
>>>> >> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
>>>> >> architecture.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
>>>> >> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
>>>> >> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
>>>> >> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
>>>> >> -
>>>> >>
>>>> http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Ka
>>>> >> raf-tt4194577.html
>>>> >>
>>>> >> What do you think about this proposition ?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Regards,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Charles Moulliard
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Apache Committer
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
>>>> >> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
>>>> >> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
>>>> >> Skype: cmoulliard
>>>> > --
>>>> > Daniel Kulp
>>>> > [hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
>>>> > Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------
>>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>>> ------------------------
>>>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>>>> ------------------------
>>>> Open Source SOA
>>>> http://fusesource.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Apache Karaf <http://karaf.apache.org/> Committer & PMC
>>> OPS4J Pax Web <http://wiki.ops4j.org/display/paxweb/Pax+Web/> Committer &
>>> Project Lead
>>> blog <http://notizblog.nierbeck.de/>
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------
> Guillaume Nodet
> ------------------------
> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> ------------------------
> Open Source SOA
> http://fusesource.com
Apache Committer / Sr. Pr. Consultant at FuseSource.com
Email: [hidden email]
Twitter : @cmoulliard, @fusenews
Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

David Jencks
I think this idea would best be kept at openejb.

I think you are being incredibly overoptimistic about the amount of work involved for even web profile certification (what tomee has).  You can get access to the tck by signing an NDA but just running it is a major undertaking, let alone fixing the problems that will show up.

thanks
david jencks

On Dec 14, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Charles Moulliard wrote:

> OpenEJB is involved into the TCK process so KarafEE will inherit it
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> So in order to convince architects and decision maker, you want to be
>> certified I suppose.
>> How much of the JEE certification do you really want to test / pass ?
>> AFAIK, that's a *LOT* of work ...
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 18:18, Charles Moulliard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Before to decide what to do we must dissociate from our discussions
>>> the "How" from the "If".
>>>
>>> For my point of view KarafEE will be a OSGI Java Application Server
>>> using Karaf as central platform and OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries as the
>>> foundation for the Enterprise features and nothing more. EE is just
>>> added for marketing/visibility reasons (like TomEE, Cloud, ...)  If we
>>> believe that it makes sense to promote "KarafEE" for the reasons that
>>> we have presented before but also to convince architects, decision
>>> makers that our technology is ready for Enterprise EJB/JPA projects
>>> even if it is based on OSGI kernel then we should do that. Otherwise,
>>> IT managers will continue to prefer to use JBoss, Glassfish, ...
>>> servers as container for Java Enterprise project as nothing else exist
>>> on the market.
>>>
>>> Next, if we decide to go into that direction, then we can discuss
>>> Where and How this project will be "build" under the governance of
>>> Apache Karaf, OpenEJB or any other Apache project.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Achim Nierbeck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> A big +1 for the Idea, since this is one of the things I can see to make
>>>> the EJB community to move to OSGi and I was already looking/longing for
>>>> such
>>>> a feature about 1,5 years ago :)
>>>>
>>>> But as Dan already said I also see this more as a OpenEJB project.
>>>> Never the less, we might start this KarafEE as a sub-project for Karaf and
>>>> donate it to OpenEJB, when they are ready for it,
>>>> or start it at GitHub, as Andreas did with the pax-exam specialty for Karaf?
>>>>
>>>> just some rambling of me :)
>>>>
>>>> regards, Achim
>>>>
>>>> 2011/12/14 Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>>> I was trying to find a way to express what i had in mind, but what you
>>>>> said basically sums it up, so not much to add here.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 16:35, Daniel Kulp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm kind of +1 to the idea, but more -0.5 to the idea *here*.   I'm
>>>>> struggling
>>>>>> to really see how it fits here as compared to being done as part of
>>>>> OpenEJB
>>>>>> community.    We're getting a lot of stuff going on in Karaf right now
>>>>> that is
>>>>>> already beginning to splinter things up a bit and this just seems to me
>>>>> to be
>>>>>> further cause issues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, if OpenEJB is already considering a Karaf based assembly, what
>>>>> would the
>>>>>> difference be between that and this?   Anyway, I really think Karaf
>>>>> should
>>>>>> stick with the stuff we're working on and more or less leave the EJB
>>>>> stuff and
>>>>>> the EE server thing with OpenEJB to them.   They are the experts in that.
>>>>>> Basically, create an awesome Karaf assembly with all the stuff we
>>>>> provide,
>>>>>> then they can build on that to create an OpenEJB EE or something by
>>>>> adding in
>>>>>> their stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, another thing I hate seeing is circular dependencies between
>>>>> projects:
>>>>>> Karaf -> OpenEJB -> KarafEE
>>>>>> but that's more of a personal opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To put it in another context, we could also create an "Karaf JBI" which
>>>>> is
>>>>>> Karaf + the JBI stuff from SMX.   But that doesn't really make a lot of
>>>>> sense
>>>>>> to me as that's really up to the SMX folks to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's $0.02 worth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 1:40:17 PM Charles Moulliard wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
>>>>>>> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
>>>>>>> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
>>>>>>> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
>>>>>>> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
>>>>>>> karaf command.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
>>>>>>> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
>>>>>>> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
>>>>>>> Transaction Manager.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
>>>>>>> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
>>>>>>> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
>>>>>>> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
>>>>>>> some arguments could be :
>>>>>>> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
>>>>>>> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
>>>>>>> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
>>>>>>> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
>>>>>>> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
>>>>>>> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
>>>>>>> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
>>>>>>> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
>>>>>>> (e.g : features, ...).
>>>>>>> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
>>>>>>> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
>>>>>>> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
>>>>>>> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
>>>>>>> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
>>>>>>> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
>>>>>>> architecture.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
>>>>>>> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
>>>>>>> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
>>>>>>> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Ka
>>>>>>> raf-tt4194577.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you think about this proposition ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charles Moulliard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apache Committer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
>>>>>>> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
>>>>>>> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
>>>>>>> Skype: cmoulliard
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Daniel Kulp
>>>>>> [hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
>>>>>> Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>> Open Source SOA
>>>>> http://fusesource.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Apache Karaf <http://karaf.apache.org/> Committer & PMC
>>>> OPS4J Pax Web <http://wiki.ops4j.org/display/paxweb/Pax+Web/> Committer &
>>>> Project Lead
>>>> blog <http://notizblog.nierbeck.de/>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------
>> Guillaume Nodet
>> ------------------------
>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>> ------------------------
>> Open Source SOA
>> http://fusesource.com

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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

Łukasz Dywicki
Let me put my 0.2 PLN.

I like the idea but I am also with Ioannis who told that we are going to have too many subprojects. Currently our subprojects are not very active. Our team do not grow quickly, some of us are busy in other projects or proffesional life. Just see how long the 3.0 release takes. See how the Cave, Cellar and WebConsole looks like now, like small zombies (especially the latest one ;-)). User base is too small to create an community. That's makes me afraid about next subproject.

Best regards,
Lukasz


> I think this idea would best be kept at openejb.
>
> I think you are being incredibly overoptimistic about the amount of work involved for even web profile certification (what tomee has).  You can get access to the tck by signing an NDA but just running it is a major undertaking, let alone fixing the problems that will show up.
>
> thanks
> david jencks
>
> On Dec 14, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Charles Moulliard wrote:
>
>> OpenEJB is involved into the TCK process so KarafEE will inherit it
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> So in order to convince architects and decision maker, you want to be
>>> certified I suppose.
>>> How much of the JEE certification do you really want to test / pass ?
>>> AFAIK, that's a *LOT* of work ...
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 18:18, Charles Moulliard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Before to decide what to do we must dissociate from our discussions
>>>> the "How" from the "If".
>>>>
>>>> For my point of view KarafEE will be a OSGI Java Application Server
>>>> using Karaf as central platform and OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries as the
>>>> foundation for the Enterprise features and nothing more. EE is just
>>>> added for marketing/visibility reasons (like TomEE, Cloud, ...)  If we
>>>> believe that it makes sense to promote "KarafEE" for the reasons that
>>>> we have presented before but also to convince architects, decision
>>>> makers that our technology is ready for Enterprise EJB/JPA projects
>>>> even if it is based on OSGI kernel then we should do that. Otherwise,
>>>> IT managers will continue to prefer to use JBoss, Glassfish, ...
>>>> servers as container for Java Enterprise project as nothing else exist
>>>> on the market.
>>>>
>>>> Next, if we decide to go into that direction, then we can discuss
>>>> Where and How this project will be "build" under the governance of
>>>> Apache Karaf, OpenEJB or any other Apache project.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Achim Nierbeck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> A big +1 for the Idea, since this is one of the things I can see to make
>>>>> the EJB community to move to OSGi and I was already looking/longing for
>>>>> such
>>>>> a feature about 1,5 years ago :)
>>>>>
>>>>> But as Dan already said I also see this more as a OpenEJB project.
>>>>> Never the less, we might start this KarafEE as a sub-project for Karaf and
>>>>> donate it to OpenEJB, when they are ready for it,
>>>>> or start it at GitHub, as Andreas did with the pax-exam specialty for Karaf?
>>>>>
>>>>> just some rambling of me :)
>>>>>
>>>>> regards, Achim
>>>>>
>>>>> 2011/12/14 Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I was trying to find a way to express what i had in mind, but what you
>>>>>> said basically sums it up, so not much to add here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 16:35, Daniel Kulp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm kind of +1 to the idea, but more -0.5 to the idea *here*.   I'm
>>>>>> struggling
>>>>>>> to really see how it fits here as compared to being done as part of
>>>>>> OpenEJB
>>>>>>> community.    We're getting a lot of stuff going on in Karaf right now
>>>>>> that is
>>>>>>> already beginning to splinter things up a bit and this just seems to me
>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>> further cause issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, if OpenEJB is already considering a Karaf based assembly, what
>>>>>> would the
>>>>>>> difference be between that and this?   Anyway, I really think Karaf
>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> stick with the stuff we're working on and more or less leave the EJB
>>>>>> stuff and
>>>>>>> the EE server thing with OpenEJB to them.   They are the experts in that.
>>>>>>> Basically, create an awesome Karaf assembly with all the stuff we
>>>>>> provide,
>>>>>>> then they can build on that to create an OpenEJB EE or something by
>>>>>> adding in
>>>>>>> their stuff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, another thing I hate seeing is circular dependencies between
>>>>>> projects:
>>>>>>> Karaf -> OpenEJB -> KarafEE
>>>>>>> but that's more of a personal opinion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To put it in another context, we could also create an "Karaf JBI" which
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> Karaf + the JBI stuff from SMX.   But that doesn't really make a lot of
>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>> to me as that's really up to the SMX folks to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's $0.02 worth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 1:40:17 PM Charles Moulliard wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
>>>>>>>> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
>>>>>>>> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
>>>>>>>> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
>>>>>>>> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
>>>>>>>> karaf command.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
>>>>>>>> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
>>>>>>>> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
>>>>>>>> Transaction Manager.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
>>>>>>>> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
>>>>>>>> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
>>>>>>>> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
>>>>>>>> some arguments could be :
>>>>>>>> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
>>>>>>>> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
>>>>>>>> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
>>>>>>>> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
>>>>>>>> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
>>>>>>>> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
>>>>>>>> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
>>>>>>>> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
>>>>>>>> (e.g : features, ...).
>>>>>>>> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
>>>>>>>> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
>>>>>>>> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
>>>>>>>> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
>>>>>>>> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
>>>>>>>> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
>>>>>>>> architecture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
>>>>>>>> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
>>>>>>>> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
>>>>>>>> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Ka
>>>>>>>> raf-tt4194577.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What do you think about this proposition ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Charles Moulliard
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apache Committer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
>>>>>>>> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
>>>>>>>> Skype: cmoulliard
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Daniel Kulp
>>>>>>> [hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
>>>>>>> Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>> Open Source SOA
>>>>>> http://fusesource.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Apache Karaf <http://karaf.apache.org/> Committer & PMC
>>>>> OPS4J Pax Web <http://wiki.ops4j.org/display/paxweb/Pax+Web/> Committer &
>>>>> Project Lead
>>>>> blog <http://notizblog.nierbeck.de/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------
>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>> ------------------------
>>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>>> ------------------------
>>> Open Source SOA
>>> http://fusesource.com
>

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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

Guillaume Nodet
2011/12/15 Łukasz Dywicki <[hidden email]>:
> Let me put my 0.2 PLN.


Aren't you supposed to switch to euros in the near future ? Though I'd
agree that's not the best time to think about it ;-)

> I like the idea but I am also with Ioannis who told that we are going to have too many subprojects. Currently our subprojects are not very active. Our team do not grow quickly, some of us are busy in other projects or proffesional life. Just see how long the 3.0 release takes. See how the Cave, Cellar and WebConsole looks like now, like small zombies (especially the latest one ;-)). User base is too small to create an community. That's makes me afraid about next subproject.
>

Right, that's the reason why I think OpenEJB might be a better place.
I fear it won't be much maintained here, as that's not the core of
Karaf.

> Best regards,
> Lukasz
>
>
>> I think this idea would best be kept at openejb.
>>
>> I think you are being incredibly overoptimistic about the amount of work involved for even web profile certification (what tomee has).  You can get access to the tck by signing an NDA but just running it is a major undertaking, let alone fixing the problems that will show up.
>>
>> thanks
>> david jencks
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Charles Moulliard wrote:
>>
>>> OpenEJB is involved into the TCK process so KarafEE will inherit it
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> So in order to convince architects and decision maker, you want to be
>>>> certified I suppose.
>>>> How much of the JEE certification do you really want to test / pass ?
>>>> AFAIK, that's a *LOT* of work ...
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 18:18, Charles Moulliard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> Before to decide what to do we must dissociate from our discussions
>>>>> the "How" from the "If".
>>>>>
>>>>> For my point of view KarafEE will be a OSGI Java Application Server
>>>>> using Karaf as central platform and OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries as the
>>>>> foundation for the Enterprise features and nothing more. EE is just
>>>>> added for marketing/visibility reasons (like TomEE, Cloud, ...)  If we
>>>>> believe that it makes sense to promote "KarafEE" for the reasons that
>>>>> we have presented before but also to convince architects, decision
>>>>> makers that our technology is ready for Enterprise EJB/JPA projects
>>>>> even if it is based on OSGI kernel then we should do that. Otherwise,
>>>>> IT managers will continue to prefer to use JBoss, Glassfish, ...
>>>>> servers as container for Java Enterprise project as nothing else exist
>>>>> on the market.
>>>>>
>>>>> Next, if we decide to go into that direction, then we can discuss
>>>>> Where and How this project will be "build" under the governance of
>>>>> Apache Karaf, OpenEJB or any other Apache project.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Achim Nierbeck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> A big +1 for the Idea, since this is one of the things I can see to make
>>>>>> the EJB community to move to OSGi and I was already looking/longing for
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> a feature about 1,5 years ago :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But as Dan already said I also see this more as a OpenEJB project.
>>>>>> Never the less, we might start this KarafEE as a sub-project for Karaf and
>>>>>> donate it to OpenEJB, when they are ready for it,
>>>>>> or start it at GitHub, as Andreas did with the pax-exam specialty for Karaf?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> just some rambling of me :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> regards, Achim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2011/12/14 Guillaume Nodet <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was trying to find a way to express what i had in mind, but what you
>>>>>>> said basically sums it up, so not much to add here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 16:35, Daniel Kulp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm kind of +1 to the idea, but more -0.5 to the idea *here*.   I'm
>>>>>>> struggling
>>>>>>>> to really see how it fits here as compared to being done as part of
>>>>>>> OpenEJB
>>>>>>>> community.    We're getting a lot of stuff going on in Karaf right now
>>>>>>> that is
>>>>>>>> already beginning to splinter things up a bit and this just seems to me
>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>> further cause issues.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, if OpenEJB is already considering a Karaf based assembly, what
>>>>>>> would the
>>>>>>>> difference be between that and this?   Anyway, I really think Karaf
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> stick with the stuff we're working on and more or less leave the EJB
>>>>>>> stuff and
>>>>>>>> the EE server thing with OpenEJB to them.   They are the experts in that.
>>>>>>>> Basically, create an awesome Karaf assembly with all the stuff we
>>>>>>> provide,
>>>>>>>> then they can build on that to create an OpenEJB EE or something by
>>>>>>> adding in
>>>>>>>> their stuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, another thing I hate seeing is circular dependencies between
>>>>>>> projects:
>>>>>>>> Karaf -> OpenEJB -> KarafEE
>>>>>>>> but that's more of a personal opinion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To put it in another context, we could also create an "Karaf JBI" which
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> Karaf + the JBI stuff from SMX.   But that doesn't really make a lot of
>>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>>> to me as that's really up to the SMX folks to do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's $0.02 worth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 1:40:17 PM Charles Moulliard wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
>>>>>>>>> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
>>>>>>>>> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
>>>>>>>>> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
>>>>>>>>> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
>>>>>>>>> karaf command.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
>>>>>>>>> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
>>>>>>>>> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
>>>>>>>>> Transaction Manager.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
>>>>>>>>> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
>>>>>>>>> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
>>>>>>>>> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
>>>>>>>>> some arguments could be :
>>>>>>>>> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
>>>>>>>>> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
>>>>>>>>> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
>>>>>>>>> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
>>>>>>>>> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
>>>>>>>>> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
>>>>>>>>> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
>>>>>>>>> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
>>>>>>>>> (e.g : features, ...).
>>>>>>>>> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
>>>>>>>>> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
>>>>>>>>> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
>>>>>>>>> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
>>>>>>>>> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
>>>>>>>>> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
>>>>>>>>> architecture.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
>>>>>>>>> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
>>>>>>>>> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
>>>>>>>>> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Ka
>>>>>>>>> raf-tt4194577.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What do you think about this proposition ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Charles Moulliard
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Apache Committer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>>> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
>>>>>>>>> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
>>>>>>>>> Skype: cmoulliard
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Daniel Kulp
>>>>>>>> [hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
>>>>>>>> Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>> Open Source SOA
>>>>>>> http://fusesource.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apache Karaf <http://karaf.apache.org/> Committer & PMC
>>>>>> OPS4J Pax Web <http://wiki.ops4j.org/display/paxweb/Pax+Web/> Committer &
>>>>>> Project Lead
>>>>>> blog <http://notizblog.nierbeck.de/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------
>>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>>> ------------------------
>>>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>>>> ------------------------
>>>> Open Source SOA
>>>> http://fusesource.com
>>
>



--
------------------------
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com
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Re: [Proposition] - Apache KarafEE

James Strachan-2
In reply to this post by Charles Moulliard
Given Geronimo is already based on Karaf and focussed on EE; am not
sure why re-implementing Geronimo inside Karaf is a good idea -
wouldn't it be better to just work with the Geronimo community to fix
the issues you've raised (which seems to be about having more
Karaf-like approaches available inside Geronimo and fixing up the web
consoles - neither seem that big a deal to me to require forking a
community & project?). Am sure the Geronimo folks would be happy to
take contributions to enable more of Karaf's features in an EE context
etc.

Certifying against EE is a massive amount of work; there has to be a
really really good reason (and a ton of volunteers with a massive
amount of free time who've got nothing better to do) to justify
duplicating that effort.

Given how modular OSGi & Karaf are; am not sure why any of these goals
can't be solved inside Geronimo (e.g. take Geronimo uninstall its
console, install Karaf's console - no need to fork a community for
that?).

On 14 December 2011 12:40, Charles Moulliard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> As you probably knows, I work with OpenEJB community since a couple of
> weeks to be able to deploy OpenEJB 4.0.0-SNAPSHOT on Apache Karaf. The
> OpenEJB container can already been deployed and EJBs jars registered.
> Work should be done around OpenEJB to be able to easily scan (like we
> do for deploy directory in Karaf) new or updated EJB jars file and add
> karaf command.
>
> When this new brick will be ready, everything will be in place to
> propose/provide an Apache KarafEE (EE = Enterprise Edition) release
> packaging OpenEJB, OpenJPA, Aries JPA, Aries JNDI, Pax Web, Aries
> Transaction Manager.
>
> The first question/remark that I will receive from the communauty will
> be : Great/Brillant idea but Apache Geronimo is already there and use
> Apache Karaf. So why developing a new server : There a lot of good
> reasons why we should do that and study my suggestion carefully but
> some arguments could be :
> (1) concurrence in this area is always good comparing to what we have
> in J2EE world, JBoss, TomEE, Glassfish. J2EE are de facto servers used
> in major and many Java projects. OSGI is not yet recognized as a
> robust and simple solution to be used due to lack of tooling,
> complexity to package and create bundles. So having a new OSGI true
> J2EE server could help to spread the world,
> (2) The packaging and deployment approach of Apache Geronimo is a bit
> different from Karaf and some of the Karaf features are not enable
> (e.g : features, ...).
> (3) The Geronimo web console cannot be reused for Apache Karaf and now
> with our new WebConsole we are independent of Apache WebConsole Felix
> (4) EJB is back since spec EJB3 like also JPA and more and more
> project does not longer use de facto Spring !
> (5) With Cellar/Fabric we have a strong foundation to
> deploy/manage/use Karaf in the cloud and design multi-servers
> architecture.
>
> KarafEE could be like Cellar, new WebConsole a subproject having its
> own assembly release process. It will contain assembly process,
> featurs, karaf commands, branding and web consoles stuffs.
>
> Remark : I have proposed also for OpenEJB that they have a
> karaf-assembly but our sub-project could be designed for that purpose
> - http://openejb.979440.n4.nabble.com/Proposition-New-maven-module-OpenEJB-Karaf-tt4194577.html
>
> What do you think about this proposition ?
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles Moulliard
>
> Apache Committer
>
> Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
> Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard
> Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard
> Skype: cmoulliard



--
James
-------
FuseSource
Email: [hidden email]
Web: http://fusesource.com
Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews
Blog: http://macstrac.blogspot.com/

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